Saturday, August 31, 2024

Counterproductive LDS SITH apologists

Maybe LDS historians, apologists, and other intellectuals should try supporting, corroborating, and teaching what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon instead of trying to persuade Latter-day Saints that Joseph and Oliver were wrong, misled everyone, and should be ignored in favor of the theories of modern LDS scholars.

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Richard Bushman's original interview on translation on Steven Harper's "CES Letters" podcast from a month ago has almost 1,000 views:


John Dehlin's 3+ hour episode from 2 days ago critiquing that interview because it confirms Runnels' "CES Letter" has almost 50,000 views:


Plus, as Dehlin points out, everyone who watches Harper's channel is driven towards the CES Letter.
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Thursday, August 29, 2024

Dehlin "SITH was one of the top three reasons"

In an August 2024 podcast about the CES Letter, John Dehlin says "we did a study of 3,000 ex Mormons to try and understand why so many people were leaving the church. Seer stone in the Hat was one of the top three reasons." 2:09:33


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T13dVy3izM

The entire video offers examples of the impact of SITH on Latter-day Saints.

Main points:

2 excerpts:

The ridiculous nature of SITH:

1:07:27 this whole story is so ridiculous when when you dig into it... He is conceding the
whole story of the rock that is just found accidentally is more advantageous evidently than using what God preserved for 2,000 years... 
It doesn't make sense in the worldview of Mormonism that God would preserve both the plates and the medium to translate... That's why he's saving them. These are the way you're going to be able to translate these plates. So you got to have those spectacles in that box
since 400 AD. There's those spectacles been in that box for Joseph to use to translate and then he doesn't need anything in the Box... 

Stephen Harper's "CES Letters" site as an introduction to the original CES Letter.


30:03 so Heraldo is recommending if you've got believing family and friends and you don't want to send them the CES letter, right, send them the CES letters and and that'll be a great 
introduction to the CES letter, by showing them CES letters because hey Richard bushman's on it.
Yes, yes, yeah and lots of BYU people and good things so it's safe, right?



CES Letters - BofM Translation by Harper, etc.

Some LDS scholars have created a website to address the CES Letter. 

https://www.cesletters.org/about

As we've come to expect, they promote SITH.

Their opening page features the absurd depiction of Joseph staring into his hat, which contradicts what Joseph and Oliver always said.

The text box uses the truncated excerpt from the Preface to the 1830 Book of Mormon that the SITH sayers typically use. (See the Gospel Topics Essays, the Joseph Smith Papers, etc.)

[See, e.g., https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/08/joseph-smith-papers-intro-to-vol-1.html]



If you go to their site, you'll see they don't quote what Joseph and Oliver said.

https://www.cesletters.org/book-of-mormon-translation

Here's the excerpt in context:

I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written, one hundred and sixteen pages, the which I took from the Book of Lehi, which was an account abridged from the plates of Lehi, by the hand of Mormon.

We see here that Joseph "took" the translation from the plates, not from a stone in the hat.

But these scholars will never point that out because it contradicts their SITH narrative. Nor will they inform readers that Joseph wrote the Preface to refute the SITH claim of Jonathan Hadley, which Hadley published in Palmyra in August 1829. Hadley's claim was widely circulated, as Joseph noted in the first line of the Preface.

To the Reader—

As many false reports have been circulated respecting the following work, and also many unlawful measures taken by evil designing persons to destroy me, and also the work, I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written, one hundred and sixteen pages, the which I took from the Book of Lehi, which was an account abridged from the plates of Lehi, by the hand of Mormon… thou shalt translate from the plates of Nephi, until ye come to that which ye have translated, which ye have retained…

For more detail, go to this article and the previous one it cites:


Wednesday, August 21, 2024

Laban doesn't need to die

If all Joseph needed to do was put a stone in a hat and read the words that appeared, Lehi presumably could have done the same. There was no need for Nephi to cut off the head of Laban.



Keystone channel: easier for me to believe...

This is a fun one. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-9yuWyJp3Y

First he claims that Joseph "recited to his scribe at a rate of about eight pages a day with no notes and his face in a hat." The accompanying video does show Joseph looking in the hat.


Then he says this:


Except he rejects what both Joseph and Oliver said about the translation! Neither of them said or implied that Joseph read words that appeared on a stone in the hat (SITH).

Instead, they explicitly said Joseph translated the plates by means of the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates.

E.g., i1838, Joseph set out several oft-asked questions in the Elders' Journal. Joseph answered the question about the Book of Mormon directly, clearly, and unambiguously. This should be the starting place for any discussion of the translation, but the SITH scholars never quote it.

Question 4th. How, and where did you obtain the Book of Mormon?

Answer. Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the Book of Mormon was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead, and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me and told me where they were and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/10 




Tuesday, August 6, 2024

President Holland and SITH

 

Here's another "SITH destroys faith" video.  In addition to the story in the video itself (which is secondhand), the comments are full of additional stories, most of which appear to be firsthand.


Thursday, July 18, 2024

"Moroni" and Mary Whitmer

The wonderful painting that depicts Mary Whitmer seeing the plates has long been mislabeled.

The M2C/SITH sayers want everyone to believe it was a shape-shifting Moroni who showed Mary the plates, but David Whitmer explained that Joseph Smith told him it was one of the Three Nephites. This was the same messenger to whom Joseph gave the abridged plates before leaving Harmony and who was going to Cumorah before bringing the plates of Nephi to Fayette for Joseph to translated, pursuant to D&C 10.

Mary herself said he identified himself as "Brother Nephi."

It was Andrew Jensen, who compiled Church history, who claimed Mary was mistaken because it was Moroni who showed her the plates, and his imaginary narrative suited the purposes of the M2Cers who claim the "real Cumorah/Ramah" is somewhere in southern Mexico, not in Cumorah. The M2Cers claim the prophets were wrong about Cumorah because the New York Cumorah/Ramah contradicts the M2C interpretation of the Book of Mormon.

To commemorate the M2C/SITH sayers' narrative, we've commissioned an edit:



Counterproductive LDS SITH apologists

Maybe LDS historians, apologists, and other intellectuals should try supporting, corroborating, and teaching what Joseph and Oliver taught a...