Sampling of SITH stories

Some examples from YouTube:

Dan Vogel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uawcYN-O8t4  

John Dehlin - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_DS4YmYK8Q&list=RDLVvzlw7Z-_fvY&index=11       

Sandra Tanner - https://youtu.be/rh5k5F8fh_s?t=3977   

The Seer Stone and Spectacles Cover-Up: 1826-2022 (this one goes on for nine hours)

SITH on Mormon Stories - Martin Lock

Martin Lock, a former temple sealer and Temple presidency counselor, explains that SITH was at the top of his list of problems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt4BOY_CcOk

2:45:10

Dehlin: you were reading go read to the list 

Lock: well uh Joseph Smith and the peep Stone 

Dehlin: oh okay what about it that's a big one

2:45:25

That is a stone in the Hat I said to a brother in the ward recently, I said don't look out the window don't look at your shoes look at me. You're concerned about my truth crisis. I want to tell you just one thing. Can you tell me how the book of Mormon was translated, by the the witness statements. Tell me what your version is. Yeah quite easy, sir. Joseph sat at a table, um a screen between him him and one of the scribes. 

2:45:49 that's a bit unusual term you know, quite unusual that um 

Dehlin: can't see him 

Lock: I found that really weird and then he said yeah and then the plates were on the table and he pursued the

2:46:00

plates and did the translation ah so you've never heard about the rock in the Hat. He went rock in the hat, what was that about then? 

This is a man been in the church 40 years.

 I never heard about it until two and a half years ago.

Dehlin: in your 70s 

Lock: in my 70s. A rock in a hat for goodness sake what we what are we talking about here? Black magic? occult?

so I got into that. I learned about that. I read all the witness statements. Emma Smith, well I moved the plates but I never saw them. She saw them. She lifted that cloth. She's not an idiot or a fool.

But she lied for her husband all the time. They're both good liars actually. 

Dehlin: she denied later after he died that he had ever practiced polygamy. 

Lock: Of course he did. Book of Mormon translation.

Dehlin: what about it 

Lock: 19th century Evangelical novel, what was going on in his time frame, um the Gadianton robbers well that's about Mason secret combinations. I don't know what they're going to handle in Sunday school when they come to that one but they put a spin on it. Great and abominable Church um the uh the black skin of the

2:47:04

American Indians well you know uh they didn't have didn't have the materials to build a temple like Solomon but the verse before says but we had Gold Silver and precious metal steel and iron but they didn't have the materials to build it like Solomon's Temple can't get me head around that one. um

2:47:20

uh the the conversion of Alma in there well it goes on the plagiarism and anachronisms anachronisms 

Dehlin: Why are Native Americans before Jesus's birth Christian like that's just a basic problem with the book of Mormon.

Lock: that came up to me time and time again I thought how can they have the word Jesus in Old Testament time frame it's a Greek word of Christos they didn't have the Greek language there they should have about Hebrew anyway not reformed Egyptian um that doesn't exist.

Book of Abraham another one wow that was a biggie now I

2:47:56

joined the church in 67 when all that was going on but did I hear of it in Bristol? Not a Dicky bird nothing um so book of Abraham big one um restoration of priesthood retrofitting in. Of course David Whitmer never knew a thing about priesthood in 1834.

Dehlin: That Melchizedek Priesthood stuff that Joseph's claiming, that that never happened and that's one of the three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon.

Lock:  yeah yeah well people don't know all the stories of the three Witnesses unfortunately yeah if you read your history you can find out about it.

_____

Lock: the great story of the Norville Expositor

2:48:39

William law I mean and he's an Olman from Ireland what a connection my hero I

2:48:45

love William law for what he did he stood up he stood up to him and all what was going on underhanded it was

2:48:53

corrupt um and people when they speak to me I put it in a nutshell I say Joseph

2:48:59

was a liar to Emma he he told lies to the church and he told lies to the world

Joseph Smith in a nutshell

2:49:05

and if you got that all in one to start with then everything else follows it was totally corrupt he

2:49:12

was he just took money off people he cheated people left right and Center he

2:49:17

got wealthy people around him surrounded him and when everything things got wrong he got rid of them when everything when

2:49:23

anything went wrong he got rid of them and uh he just cast them out

2:49:29

excommunicated them didn't want them anymore he just wanted yes men around him and I'm just looking forward to the

2:49:36

day when the church May finally open up the the uh clerical records of uh ww

2:49:45

Phelps looking forward to that and the minutes as the Council of 50 novu minutes I'd like look forward to looking

2:49:51

looking at that seeing that I think that would tell a big story it will add it will add to the the corruption and the

2:49:59

lies and um I think the church is now with the coming of the internet uh I

2:50:05

think they had it all button down and now the lid's blown off and I I can't see it I think the church will always be

2:50:12

there because of the money but I don't think it will I just don't think it will develop I think it will it will go the

2:50:21

other way what was it like for you you you've referred to this already earlier in the

2:50:26

episode what was it like to be a convert at 20 to have 50 amazing years as a

2:50:33

Mormon you found the love of your life through the church had all these amazing

2:50:39

experiences leading the church growing the church raising your kids in the church serving in the church clearly

2:50:46

your life was blessed and and clearly you benefited from your church

2:50:51

membership give 50 years of your life you're in your 70s and then for the first time you're

2:50:59

learning the truth the facts about the church's Origins and very problematic

2:51:06

disturbing facts what was that like for you in your early

2:51:11

70s totally devastating completely devastating

2:51:20

it's it's like a romance it broke up deep in my heart I

2:51:27

felt I felt

2:51:32

um I felt so betrayed so

2:51:37

disappointed um that it was not true anymore it was like

2:51:43

a probably I mean I've never been divorced so I can't I've never experienced that would never want that was never on our lips Jan and I but I

2:51:50

feel divorced from the church I feel it's I've been robbed of my Integrity uh

2:51:59

my my allegiance to a cause um but I don't I don't see

2:52:06

anything being fulfilled in the church either I don't see this Gathering to Jackson County the temple being built

2:52:13

there and don't see these some of these prophecies that were made being fulfilled um but stick with your your

2:52:20

feelings like like and and there's just a devil's advocate you had an amazing

2:52:28

life I did so far and and you know Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them

2:52:33

the fruits of the Mormon Church in the UK you just you just spent two and a half hours almost three telling us the

2:52:41

amazing fruits of the Mormon Church in the UK and in your life so what if

2:52:46

someone were to say to you we don't understand the history it's we don't know for sure what happened and none of

2:52:53

those are flexs of History they don't matter what matters the fruit you felt

2:52:59

the spirit you have tasted the fruit you've benefited from the fruit that's

2:53:04

what matters don't let silly history take you away from what you know was a

2:53:11

super positive thing in your life and in the lives of tens or hundreds of thousands of others it's the fruit that

2:53:17

matters don't let the other stuff get you off track be grateful be grateful

2:53:23

for the amazing role the Mormon church had in your life but you that's that's exactly right

2:53:32

but you can't go on um without the without the truth and the

2:53:40

history of the church you just can't go on believing in that church if it doesn't

2:53:46

tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth and um it's not taught the truth the

2:53:53

Book of Mormon is not the word of God it it paints a nice picture because it teaches some nice things about Jesus and

2:53:59

it's attracted to people because it's it sounds biblical but the book was there

2:54:05

as a vehicle for Joseph Smith to get this prestigious position as a spiritual

2:54:13

Prophet SE leader and um and I believe

2:54:18

he did some awful things he was I believe was a very cruel man I wouldn't want to be around him with my wife I'd

2:54:26

be scared to death and I can't I can't trust the church like I used to I

2:54:33

thoroughly believed in the leadership of the church at one time I believed in those men I've met a few of them over

2:54:39

the years when we had a chance to meet them but I just see it now as a very it's not progress the church is not

2:54:46

progressing it's decreasing it's going the other way and i' I've had to ask myself the question why is that

2:54:53

why don't people in England convert to the church why is it are they too intellectual are they too

2:55:00

um are they too uh prideful Pro Pride there are they do they not need God

2:55:08

because they can do all themselves are they well off are they influential what is it that stops them I believe when

2:55:14

they have an experience with the missionaries about the Mormons they pick the phone up up in 5 minutes today and they can read all about it like I said

2:55:21

to my friend the other day go away and Google searstone it might educate you

2:55:27

now did he do that I don't know I've not been around to ask him but you know I I like to follow the truth and you know I

2:55:34

look at a little the Methodist Faith they don't they don't make any truth claims they just say we believe in Jesus we follow the the Bible as best we can

2:55:41

and we're happy and we got a relationship with Jesus we got a relationship to a salvic message and

2:55:48

that's good enough for me and for them and we're very happy and we don't need

2:55:54

to make any truth claims or say we have all the truth you know we have a parcel

2:55:59

of it a paral partial truth I guess and they're happy because they have a relationship it's like a Baptist or a

2:56:05

presbyterian what about Authority like the church would say its primary value

2:56:10

is that Jesus sanctioned our ordinances but all the ordinances baptism marriage

2:56:17

and other Church they don't count cuz they don't have God's stamp of of authority well you can challenge

2:56:23

authority in the LDS Church of course because there's only two guys there to talk about it and um you mean Joseph

2:56:30

Smith and Oliver cry yeah um and Joseph on his own with the first Vision in the Book of Mormon that we've never seen

2:56:37

so-called handed back the Golden Plates yeah then you got 116 Pages missing that's another one um um so it goes on

2:56:44

but uh I think a Methodist for example say well you know I have a relationship

2:56:50

with Jesus I'm doing the best I can and I don't think the church ever did finish

2:56:56

on the earth because the Holy Spirit was sent and they believe they have the Holy Spirit and it gives them a conviction

2:57:02

and they have in their eyes they have an honest conviction and they're not too concerned about Authority as such for

2:57:09

baptism they might not find that essential because they find you know

2:57:15

their belief is essential and and and and Jesus sometimes said well you know

2:57:20

if you have faith in me I've made you whole doesn't talk about a baptism doesn't talk about a belief he says he

2:57:27

just says You' got a belief in me in me the Savior um and I think I think it's got

2:57:32

to be more simple Christlike Faith than what the LDS church put out there it's all about

2:57:40

works it's all about after all you can do well what how do you define all you

2:57:46

can do how do you define you can't Define it it's the life you lived for 50 years

2:57:52

that's what all you can do is was it I don't know no seriously you lived it for 50

2:57:58

years you know what it is you did it and it made you a good guy and it made it created a great family but I also

2:58:04

believe I'm saved by grace as Paul quoted yeah and I I've been in meetings and people that have been in a church a

2:58:11

long time and say what is Grace and so I put my hand up and I and

2:58:16

I and I tell them I I'll explain what what Grace is to you it it's an invitation of the the enabling power of

2:58:23

Christ that's available for you but it's his invitation to come unto him um to believe in him follow me I am

2:58:33

the bread of life I am the truth of life I am the way the truth in the life and no man cometh unto me but by the father

2:58:40

and nobody else by the father it's not by Joseph Smith as briam young said it's

2:58:46

by the father and and um and I believe that I don't believe you have to go

2:58:52

through anybody or have to have a handshake or know a password or pay 10% or pay 10% his grace is sufficient for

2:58:59

all men he is the Healer he is the god of

2:59:05

Miracles he is at the door he is the door to the Sheepfold and we have to

2:59:10

come through him and therefore we don't need Temple rituals and Temple

2:59:15

obligations I see it all now quite clearly and I believe I Can Think Clearly Now I

2:59:21

am free of all this um ritual and works and I have a

2:59:28

relationship with my brother finally I have a relationship with the friends I used to have and the people I've

2:59:33

neglected and some of my some of my immediate family my uncle I look after in a nursing home I haven't seen for

2:59:40

years and years and I've I've related to my cousins my long lost cousins so I'm doing things now that I've neglected

2:59:48

for other things um and I felt very guilty about

2:59:53

that I about to apologize to people that I've neglected them and they say well don't worry about it it's in the past so

3:00:01

I try to make it up to them now I talk to my brother every other day on the phone I go and visit him he welcomes me

3:00:08

to his home come and stay come and stay and spend some time with me so it was wonderful I couldn't do that in the

3:00:15

past and um that's a sad thing I suppose the other side of the the other side of

3:00:20

the coin the other things get sacrificed uh for your time commitment in the

3:00:30

church yeah it you spend a lot of your life serving yeah and that's if this is the

3:00:37

only life you get then that time could have been spent in other ways I I don't

3:00:42

regret being a member of the church because it gave me those um

3:00:48

blessings in my life but I could have got those blessings somewhere else with those that kind of service um I just feel

3:00:58

um that I can't carry on I can't attend a sacrament meeting and hear things I

3:01:04

don't agree with and this year they're teaching the Book of Mormon I I I I can't go into that class I would I would

3:01:11

I would have to keep my mouth really zipped otherwise I'd cause a disturbance and then probably I finish up having a

3:01:18

High Council disciplinary you know and it's like my friend said do you

3:01:23

want to go leave the church go out fighting or do you want to have your name removed or do you have nuisance

3:01:29

value by being a member big decision but I'll probably have my name removed eventually sooner

3:01:36

than later it's I don't want to go to church and upset someone and start saying well I don't believe that have

3:01:42

you have you look considered this have you read this could you get these filthy looks um and then you have the presiding

3:01:49

priesthood breathing down your neck and uh could you be quiet in the next lesson please brother lock you know I find that

3:01:55

hard to do I truth is truth isn't it I thought this I thought the LDS church believed in

3:02:01

truth um a lot of lies told in the history of the church a lot of lies a lot of subd diffusion going on um bad

3:02:10

bad deals um and it just sickens me makes my heart

3:02:15

bleed I I I've never never thought I'd ever get to this never my wife took it

3:02:21

pretty hard when I told her um you know and I said uh I I have to

3:02:28

stick to my conscience Jan I can't I can't go on except in this stuff that's

3:02:34

taught from the pulpit and in lessons it's difficult it's so difficult and I've met other people the same they find

3:02:40

it so hard you know we shed tears over it it's it's so difficult you know my

3:02:49

brother-in-law is a bishop in pter down in Ireland he's a good guy but him and

3:02:54

his wife say well we found Christ in the church and that's all we're interested in we're not interested in anything else

3:03:00

I said but you can't do that you you know you have to conduct interviews you the temple recommend depends on your

3:03:06

faith in Joseph Smith and the current leadership of the church and the restoration yeah prophet seers and

3:03:11

revelators you can't you can't do that you in the Book of Mormon yeah you can't you can't do it you got to come to some

3:03:17

conclusion over it and he tried he he tried to grill my sister-in-law a couple of years ago in Ireland he was very

3:03:23

heavy with her I said Rob you know back off back off a little bit you know she's

3:03:29

made a decision she has a faith in Jesus I know where you're coming from I know

3:03:34

you have a great faith in Christ and I admire you for that but I also have faith in Christ and um you know he was

3:03:41

disappointed in me but he's still you know we still have a good relationship I

3:03:46

love him he's ill with cancer at the moment and I do love him dearly and my intention is

3:03:54

to get over there when I get home and see him um I love all her family they're

3:03:59

wonderful people most of them have left the church so you don't

3:04:05

regret giving your life most of your life to the church you don't regret it

3:04:11

no I think it was I think it was um it was a good contribution to society um met my wife life through it

3:04:19

um I enjoyed my mission um no I don't think there's a regret there I just have a regret now

3:04:29

that I found these things out and it saddens me greatly just sadden me so you

3:04:36

don't wish you had never been Mormon or that you joined the church you wish you hadn't learn the truth about the church

He wishes he hadn’t learned the truth

3:04:43

is that what you said that's what I'm saying yeah so you're not happier

3:04:48

now I'm happy that I know I have a conscience and I can make a clear

3:04:53

decision I'm happy now I am I am um what's the word I'm looking for

3:05:00

complete uh I feel relaxed I can think more for myself I can um feel free to

3:05:09

make decisions outside of the church I can pursue other avenues of

3:05:14

interest um you know I I had a place in Spain and I had a car a trailer and when

3:05:21

I bought the trailer for my wife mainly to make her happy she always wanted a caravan I thought well when are we going

3:05:27

to have time to use it you know that was difficult because of commitment to the church

3:05:33

so yeah it was uh yeah I enjoyed it

3:05:39

overall but feel now I'm free I am free I am free to follow the New

3:05:46

Testament Jesus that I've always tried to learn about so

3:05:51

I like listening to Bart ER theologians great man great mind opens

3:05:59

up avenues for me I'd never thought of before and uh I can I can develop my

3:06:05

mind in new avenues of spirituality not so much religion but

3:06:11

spirituality yeah sometimes ex Mormons end up deconstructing the Bible just like they deconstructed The Book of

3:06:17

Mormon have you been through that yeah I do yeah I'm interested to know a bit more about Jewish history tradition

3:06:23

culture language um because I'm very ignorant I I I um I don't know a lot

3:06:29

about that I know some of it I know a little bit about ancient Israel and the law of Moses and the Ark of the Covenant

3:06:36

and the ups and downs of their righteous Behavior or unrighteous behavior um and

3:06:41

how it was all directed to come in the Fulfillment of Christ he fulfilled the law um

3:06:48

not according to LDS theology he didn't but in my opinion he fulfilled the law he is the law in the prophets and um so

3:06:56

I'm learning those Avenues now and it's interesting and it's fulfilling and it's uh I realize that um it's important to

3:07:04

maintain a relationship to Christ I don't

3:07:10

understand the Holy Ghost too much I find that confusing

3:07:16

um people people say oh well I find out through the spirit well I think you mean your intellect you know God's given you

3:07:23

an intellect and you use the intellect um yeah

3:07:29

so so really quickly I don't know that

3:07:35

members of the LDS church here in the United States know how bad things are for the church

3:07:40

in the UK and the extent to which the LDS church in the UK is emerging and or

How bad things are in the UK

3:07:48

dying do you want to paint a picture you know you you were a witness to the incredible growth do you want to quickly

3:07:55

paint a picture of of the church's demise in the UK well I got a very good

3:08:01

friend up in London who's in the same position I am he's been a member since 1965 his Ward recently was closed and he

3:08:09

built that ward he feels very embittered about that um because he says it's

3:08:15

difficult for the elderly members to move around on buses in the London area

3:08:21

um he recently went to a conference where they closed down the Maidstone stake which usually gets 750 plus

3:08:28

members there and uh Elder boom was at that conference and he this friend said

3:08:34

to me he said well don't worry about the Stak being closed oh there's only 250 in attendance by the way he said don't

3:08:40

worry about the stake being closed in four years time you'll be back here well

3:08:45

I had another guy reach out to me from Gloucester good member and he he was asking how I

3:08:50

was and how was feeling and um cuz the words out over there most people know

3:08:56

goes through the Great Vine very quickly um he said I said to him I said uh my

3:09:01

friend in London informs me there's only 133% activity in the church in the London area and he said well let me tell

3:09:08

you something it's 99.6% so less than one of 10 members of

3:09:14

the church that the church claims in the UK or at in London are actually attending or self-identifying as Mormon

3:09:21

yeah 90% of the Mormons in lond London yeah are out of the church yeah well

3:09:27

just don't attend yeah of course the uh I think what happens in in Britain the

3:09:34

vulnerable people I'm saying would um would have the the missionaries in they

3:09:39

like they like the the Americans coming to their home it's a novelty uh where are you from oh I'm from uh St George

3:09:47

Utah where's that always down in the desert and it's very hot and blah they get to know them and get to know their

3:09:53

personalities they become friends and they might have them around for dinner and then they have another discussion

3:09:58

and and eventually they get the commitment well would you like to be baptized if you know these things are

3:10:03

true and they finish up getting baptized for argument sake and the missionaries get moved and they never come out again

3:10:11

they just sometimes they never even go to church after their baptism i' I've learned of those experiences where people young boys was baptized at 8 with

3:10:18

his family and uh he's now 58 and never went to church and doesn't even know anything about the church don't know

3:10:24

who's who in the church and his wife would say no he's not a member I said well according to our record he is uh

3:10:30

and she gets him on the phone and says oh yeah yeah yeah I was I was baptized at eight but never went out to church and that's common place so that happened

3:10:38

a lot and uh um the modern a member with

3:10:44

uh an intelligent person you might say would pick up the phone in five minutes we know all about the church and history

3:10:51

we'll get on to websites be directed to websites learn about it and say well I don't think I want them back dear I've

3:10:56

learned a few things I don't think you'd like to hear about you know and oh what's that dear well you know they they

3:11:02

used to practice more than one wife and practice this and I'm not very happy

3:11:07

with that and uh they're mature enough and intelligent enough to make a decision and say no I don't really want

3:11:14

that it's very high demand uh where's the church oh is uh is 10 miles away or or something you know

3:11:20

and we live out here in the country or whatever it PS them off a little bit

3:11:25

they just fade away and the missionaries in England are not having much success they do a lot of stuff on

3:11:31

Facebook um we never see them on the streets never hardly ever bump into

3:11:37

them so yeah but I think it's dying in England I did an estimate once and I got it dead right I estimated uh as as a

3:11:45

good estimate 30,000 between 28 and 32,000 people active and

3:11:51

there's 30,000 active in Britain I believe uh out of a membership of about 186 188,000 people a lot of them are

3:11:59

lost file by the way you can't find them they just move away and don't leave any any forwarding address nothing at all

3:12:07

and then it's embarrassing when you go out to find them and you meet people that are now living in the house that are not members of the church well you

3:12:13

know why are you doing this and we don't know where they live and we think they moved down south somewhere and the whole

3:12:19

exercise you waste a lot of time there's a lot of wasted time out there with people you go and see less active

3:12:25

members and they say no I the church is okay keep me on the records but I'm not interested don't bother me I'm I'm okay

3:12:31

I'm very happy yeah family's doing well haven't been at a church for 30 40 years

3:12:37

don't don't bother me get a lot of that sad but and you get some good people

3:12:44

that have given up on the church now for all these reason today they've given up they

3:12:52

feel same way uh things have been

3:12:57

whitewashed uh we don't discuss these things you don't you're not supposed to read anything it was just called

3:13:03

anti-mormon literature and I had a brother come up to me and he said what's all this anti-mormon literature you've been

3:13:09

reading I said uh I don't read any anti- literature but I tell you what I do read I do read church history and and

3:13:17

I discover things and I try and qualify it and that's what I've done I've qualified it and it's it's RI me apart

3:13:24

John with my wife it RI me apart and uh it's hard to handle as

3:13:31

someone who's enjoyed it all his life and believed in it and sustained the leadership and I've sustained my

3:13:38

leadership locally when my children have been disfellowshipped uh rightly or wrongly

3:13:45

but they had terrible treatment from pre said leadership in my opinion and I still sustain them and I was wrong to do

3:13:51

that I should have made a made a case for them how dare you speak to my daughter in the tone you spoke to her

3:13:57

you know but I didn't so two of my daughters have had their names removed and so was my

3:14:04

youngest son and my wife and I we knew nothing about that nothing about

3:14:09

it but he they they preceded Your Truth crisis yes they did okay and uh Aaron my

3:14:17

eldest son came over to England about 2 years ago this month and uh he turned to

3:14:22

me in the car his wife was in another car with my daughter and uh he turned to me and he said dad he said I just want

3:14:28

you to know I'm I'm not very okay with the church I have some issues and I said

3:14:34

well good for you son cuz you're talking to someone with the same problems I think he was very relieved to know that

3:14:42

and uh we were on the same wavelength and uh

3:14:48

I felt confident I wasn't an idiot they had enough common sense and enough

3:14:55

intellect to discover what I've discovered and um evaluate it all in a

3:15:03

reasonable situation um and from not all not all

3:15:08

from an intellectual point of view but from a a view of reasoning of my own mind and bearing the truths on the table

3:15:16

you know let's let's discuss the Book of Mormon let's see where the flaws are let's see what I'm not happy with there

3:15:22

let's see if I can get an explanation but no one can give me one I've met with the state president and the bishop and

3:15:28

they just can't help me are you worried by doing this interview you could be disciplined maybe

3:15:35

excommunicated I I no I'm not bothered about that I I would only ever explain the

3:15:40

truth truth is all I'm interested in and I just felt I felt let down and deceived

3:15:47

and I'd have to stand by that and I can I'd have to prove that in a defense which I would do I would uh do exactly

3:15:53

what bill real did tell the truth do you think there's anything the

3:15:58

church could do to turn it around and to get things healthy and growing again in your

3:16:04

opinion the church comes to you and says Martin Martin lock help us out we want

What can the church do to be healthy?

3:16:09

to turn things around and get things positive healthy and growing what advice

3:16:15

would you give the church the church would have to get rid of all their truth

3:16:20

claims they'd have to what are they going to do they'd have to say yeah the book of Abraham is not not true not

3:16:26

written by the hand of Abraham it's not true could get rid of section 132 in the doctrine of

3:16:32

covenants um what about the book of morm yeah that's to get rid of that I think yeah yeah yeah it's not it's not true

3:16:38

scripture it's not scripture certainly not ancient it's just a modern mind thought of 19th century New England

3:16:45

Evangelical rhyme um plagiarized greatly plagiarized I mean you can't have there

3:16:51

word for word in there almost thousands of words straight out of the new testament which also is a translation as

3:16:56

we know and the Old Testament yeah you know and then yeah there's just so much stuff that's not right what about the

3:17:03

claim that Russell and Nelson is God's Prophet on the earth and he talks to God and Jesus no don't believe that for one

3:17:10

minute he's a nice man to the LDS people I think he's a good man um but uh no

3:17:18

it's not a sear he doesn't give us any advice how to get ready for the Millennium or epidemics and yeah he does

3:17:24

he says go to the temple go off it go yeah yeah would you what would you tell

3:17:30

the church about Temple work I say it's a waste of time and money and money yeah

3:17:38

it's a lovely building it looks nice from the road uh bright and Shiny Bright and

3:17:45

shiny and lights up at night uh yeah yeah that's all lovely but that's the

3:17:50

picture they paint to the public yeah so no don't agree with it at all it's got

3:17:56

no place in for me no and yet will the world be let's say

3:18:02

the mor mat Church disappears will the world be better off will the you know will the Martin locks of the world have

3:18:11

a better framework and structure to to build themselves and to build their

3:18:16

family I mean is the world better off in your opinion without the Mormon Church given all the good that it's delivered

3:18:23

to you and your family you can find you can find good in any worthwhile organization whatever you whatever you

3:18:30

put your hand or your mind to you can do good you can be part of good

3:18:37

I and you it's all about being informed it's no good being informed about a

3:18:42

truth claim which is not true that's no good to anybody but what if it makes

3:18:48

gives you a happy healthy life even if it's not true it's like a myth it's it's

3:18:53

a set of beliefs of myths of Heroes of morals of values of Ethics that produce

3:19:00

happy healthy individuals and families but you can't build it on a lie John it's got to be built on a

3:19:07

foundation of Truth and it's got to be you got to have some facts and some evidence um the ODS Church doesn't have

3:19:14

that yes it has all those good things as qualities but that can be found in lots of

3:19:20

organizations uh in lots of um uh communities you can belong to a

3:19:27

community and you can develop those things and have community and have a healthy

3:19:33

lifestyle people people there's lots of people like they like their lives to be a bit private and they find happiness in

3:19:40

in a private Quiet Moments of their lives some people like to be around a

3:19:45

lot of people I was kind of like that enjoyed being around good

3:19:51

people and the members of the members of the LDS church are wonderful people I love them I love the people I've been

3:19:57

with these last four weeks wonderful people um people that respect me as a

3:20:03

missionary oh I remember when you were the AP and we all looked up to you being the English guy you know and and I

3:20:09

didn't look at it like that I looked at just I was I felt like I was just a normal everyday missionary I didn't want to be

3:20:17

the big boss in the mission as some APS used to be and other missionaries would

3:20:22

bow down would hero worship them that wasn't for me I just wanted to be on their

3:20:28

side of the ballpark you know not the other side yeah I'm just you know get on

3:20:35

and do the work let's make people happy let's teach the gospel well um yeah

3:20:42

those are all good things and the church does a lot of good things I wouldn't take that away and the members are great

3:20:48

they're wonderful wonderful people because they've been trying to live a good life yeah but there's a lot

3:20:54

of members like that that are very disappointed and I've seen them on many

3:21:01

podcasts uh they're devastated by the things they learn and

3:21:08

I if you have a conscience and you're into truth then you have to accept that some things

3:21:14

aren't quite not what you think they were or are and that's where I am and I

3:21:21

have to I have to be a voice I suppose for uh truth and

3:21:29

um yeah I I think the church have tried to turn it around over the years to be this

3:21:36

a squeaky clean moral thinking church at the turn of the century they had to turn it around and bury the past and they're

3:21:43

still trying to do it they're still trying that but when When leaders of the church

3:21:51

say well you can't quote the dead prophets that's that's silly you might as well throw away the

3:21:56

Bible might as well throw away the book of woman um throw it all away do you

3:22:02

believe you'll see um Jen again I do I believe in a spirit existence I do yeah

3:22:09

yeah I talk to her every day I tell her what I do every day and uh I feel that

Does he believe in an afterlife?

3:22:15

closeness with her and I miss her she was raised in the

3:22:23

church in the 1950s she was 1958 she was baptized as a little

3:22:29

girl struggled in her teenage years came back to church and went on a

3:22:35

mission and that was the making of her um but she understood in those last

3:22:43

moments of her life that there were there were issues in the church that had to be resolved loved and uh she didn't love me any less

3:22:50

she told me cuz I asked her and

3:22:56

uh I just told her that I can't go against my conscience and I've learned things Jan

3:23:03

that one day you will learn as well but she couldn't she could hardly talk so I

3:23:08

and she was on her journey and I couldn't move her away from that it would be unfair she couldn't defend

3:23:15

herself very well um and she always say to people I was

3:23:21

the studier in the family I was the reader I was the speaker I you know um

3:23:28

she always played in the in the back queue be in behind the scenes but she was she served State primary president

3:23:34

State release study presidency Ward release study president young women's president we've done all John three

3:23:40

times over we got recycled all the time she's a wonderful woman I I married

3:23:46

a a great woman will it be through in your view will it be through Jesus that you see her again or just the way the

3:23:53

universe is is it is Jesus critical to your being able to see Jan again in your

3:23:59

beliefs um no I think as the world sees I will see her again and I hopefully Jesus will

3:24:07

be there to welcome us home to give us a mansion that we he

3:24:12

talks about in my father's house or many mansions and by darn I hope it is a

3:24:19

mansion not a room beautiful yeah any final things you want to say to our

3:24:25

audience especially to our UK viewers some may be still believing yeah some may be

3:24:30

questioning some may you know may be sad to hear this sad to see someone of such

3:24:38

status and influence fall in their eyes and then they might be terrified and or they might

3:24:47

be influenced by you in ways that may or may not be positive for the rest of their lives so what do you say to those

3:24:55

any final words to those especially from the UK who might be watching well it's a

Final thoughts

3:25:01

it's a very delicate balance this uh if you follow truth you have to follow your heart and your mind and it could cause

3:25:08

problems in your marriage if you're married to a very devoted woman most of the women I come across are very devoted

3:25:15

um spiritually wise probably more spiritual than the men and they're very devoted they follow a

3:25:21

calls um and this is a difficult one John I think you have to watch be

3:25:26

conscious of your marriage relationship I don't want to see marriages uh falling apart over the

3:25:34

church and I've got a friend at the moment a very close friend who's in that position and uh I'm trying to give him

3:25:42

some advice because he respects my advice

3:25:48

and it's a difficult one but he's been married as long as I have and to a very faithful woman and uh

3:25:57

I think you have to tread very cautiously the problem is is when you come for your temple recommend interview

3:26:03

isn't it you know do you lie or do you tell the truth

3:26:09

do you lie and be faithful or do you tell the truth difficult but for most

3:26:14

people in Britain um come to know the truth and be happy about it in yourself

3:26:20

make your own decisions be wise uh be sensitive be

3:26:26

cautious but be truthful to your conviction that's the most you know I

3:26:31

had to join the church on a conviction and now I I'm at the other end now and I'm leaving the church on a conviction

3:26:38

of the things I've discovered not healthy not for me anyway yeah other

3:26:44

people would probably brush it under the carpet won't worry about it but I I couldn't possibly go on in my life and

3:26:51

confront the Savior and say uh I'm following you because I love you

3:26:58

uh but I got to I got to do it Jesus's way and that's a private way for me it's

3:27:04

a private way and that's where I am it's a

3:27:09

private heartfelt conviction that I still believe that Jesus is the savior

3:27:14

of the world and he will ultimately be my savior yeah last question uh how many

3:27:22

there's four temples currently in the UK is that right well there's two in there's two currently operating okay and

3:27:28

there's two in the build plan okay so four total there will be four yeah and what do you you've probably already

3:27:34

answered this but what do you think about two new temples being built in a UK church that's

3:27:40

dying I don't think it will make a lot of difference for attendance um the London Temple now is

Thoughts on the two new temples being built in the UK

3:27:47

not attended very well um I certainly seen a decline even when I was in the

3:27:53

presidency uh they only have one shift on the temple now where it used to be two uh I hear things about the temple in

3:28:01

chle that is that Preston is that called the Preston Temple okay it's Charle that's not attended very well like it

3:28:07

used to be at one time it was a mad rush now it's not so not so demanding um and

3:28:13

I think it' be the same in Edinburgh there' be a quick flurry at first and then it'll it'll die off I think and

3:28:19

same but birmingham's in a in a sort of big Area Industrial Area few Stakes around there but they did close the

3:28:25

stake last year they closed the Lichfield stake um so the stakes are shrinking in membership Wards are being

3:28:32

closed it's rampant it's going to be epidemic proportions I think we're going to see a lot more happening because the

3:28:38

more that leave the more leave you know what I mean yeah it's like your kids leave then you leave right Generations are leaving yeah they're not coming

3:28:45

through the next uh uh tier of

3:28:50

leadership is not there people often say what we did in the church our children

3:28:58

our grandchildren won't do today they can't do it they can't do what we did John they can't give their all they make

3:29:04

too many excuses and you get burnout get a lot of burnout and people say well I

3:29:09

can't do anymore and burn out I'm neglecting my wife I'm neglecting my children I see that all the time with

3:29:15

our current State present same thing his dad did everything never saw my dad yeah it's

3:29:21

sad and uh you have to be so careful of your time commitment yeah

3:29:28

yeah well Martin lock this has been a fascinating three and a half hours I really appreciate you on your vacation

3:29:34

on your holidays whatever you call them taking the time to do a Mormon stories interview to help us learn about your

3:29:43

story to learn about the Mormon Church in the UK but also to speak the truth about what you've

3:29:49

learned especially coming from a position of relatively High status that takes a lot of Integrity takes a lot of

3:29:56

courage and um it's very a very generous thing to do so I want to thank you uh on

3:30:02

behalf of my viewers and listeners I really appreciate it thank you John I I

3:30:07

appreciate the time you spent with me today I hope that your viewers have enjoyed some my content today that it's

3:30:14

helpful and people realize how we do things in in in Great Britain um it's difficult we're like a

3:30:22

poor cousin over there to the church over here don't think we get the benefits that we would like to see happen and it's even worse in Europe of

3:30:29

course in other parts of the world but uh I

3:30:35

uh I've given an honest appraisal today of uh of everything all the questions

3:30:41

you've asked me and they've been quite in depth and uh and I've enjoyed the the time with you thank you so much for

3:30:47

taking the time to listen to me cuz my wife says I can talk for England bless

3:30:54

her